We talked about this yesterday in my Bible as Literature class.
I don't think things are evil, I think attitudes are evil. We were talking about various different things, about alcohol and other things of a similar nature, and someone mentioned how evil they are. I am acknowledging that for the most part, things are evil, but I don't think that is the concern on God's part. I think God is concerned with the attitudes that lead to behaviors, not as much the specific behaviors (although he is surely concerned with some behaviors).
For instance, I don't think God thinks that alcohol is evil. In fact, he says pretty much that much, when he says it is for the washing of our bodies (mouthwash) in the Word of Wisdom. He clearly doesn't feel like alcohol is evil. But I think culturally we think it to be. I knew someone who wouldn't use alcoholic mouthwash because they "wanted to avoid even the appearance of evil." I think when Latter Day Saints consume alcohol it isn't necessarily the alcohol that bothers God as much as it is what the consumption of alcohol means--you are not listening to his council and his prophets. So all of a sudden your heart isn't in a place that will listen to God or his servants, and this is what scares God more than the actual alcohol does.
Think of it this way, when Christ comes again he will destroy all pornography. Pornography, in one grand moment, and suddenly, will quickly become a non-issue. So we can clearly see that pornography doesn't worry God, at least in an eternal way. But this is the rub, the attitude that persisted in people's hearts to look at pornography could theoretically, and realistically, endure in someone's heart forever. God isn't worried about the pornography, he is worried about someone's heart being in a place that it shouldn't be in.
If a person commits adultery I don't think God worries about the actual sex. He doesn't care about the actual physical act that existed between the two people. God cares about the lack of love for the spouse, for the adulterer's heart being far from HIm, and for the fact that they are putting off the Spirit of God. He cares about the attitude that existed in the heart of the adulterer, not the act.
We have come to worship, in an opposite kind of way, sins. We think that the sins are what keep us from God, when I think in reality it is the attitude that enabled us to do the sin that keeps us away. And this attitude isn't a convenient attitude to hold, because it makes you consider all your acts. So if I skip my priesthood meeting I could easily think "well, priesthood meeting isn't very important, it doesn't really matter if I go." I think to some extent, a person could be right when they think that. But I would think, if I skipped Priesthood, that an attitude led me to not go to my meeting. An attitude made it so I didn't go and try to increase other's faith by sharing my own. An attitude let me think that I could not make time for spiritual things and still survive spiritually. So this attitude of attitudes being evil and not actual acts makes me think much more about what I do or do not do. The Priesthood wasn't the best example, but you get the point (hopefully).
So what I am saying is, if my child comes up to me and says "Dad, I fooled around with my girlfriend" I won't freak out because of the act, I will freak out because of the attitude, or mentality, that was in my son's mind when he committed the act, not the act itself. I will do my best to help him, or her, see that their attitude, not the act, is what is going to keep them from God.
Another way to look at it is this, if my son wanted to fool around with a girl (and not in the "everyone is naturally attracted to someone way, but in the "I really want to fool around with my girlfriend way) I would think that he needed to change his mentality. If he didn't even do it he would still need to repent, because at that point he wanted to do it. So regardless of the act the attitude would need to change.
Personally, I think God cares about the end result. Evil acts are simply the manifestation of evil attitudes. Evil is, to me, doing something that is against the will of God, or won't bring happiness, which I think is the same thing. God doesn't care what sins we committed, he only cares what our hearts are like. This attitude of attitudes being important put the impetus on us to ensure that our hearts are right with God. It is a difficult life to live.
Love you guys
3 years ago
13 comments:
Hm. Yes... and no. This is the thing, I think that motivation and attitude is HUGE. Huge, huge, huge. You mentioned that God cares about the end result - I agree. Elder Oaks says as much (see "The Challenge to Become" - I don't have the reference at the moment but you can sure look it up on lds.org, and honestly, I assume you already know what I'm referring to). While I think I get the point you were trying to make, but I think that God actually does care about the acts and the behavior too.
Pornography involvement, for example, while obviously a manifestation of an evil (or immoral or whatever) attitude, and while it definitely does an unbelievable amount of damage to the individual soul, is more problematic than just that. The acts, the behavior that accompanies a pornography addiction is problematic on many levels. Among them, it ruins relationships with spouse and children, it can cause somebody to lose their job, it can cost a ton of money and pain and self-hatred and on and on and on once someone decides to deal with it. It actually changes certain areas of your brain, so that moral reasoning is messed up (serious, this is Rory Reid's big thing - he's the [for lack of an official word] social worker who specializes in working with men and women with sexual addiction.
Adultery, alcohol, sins in general - I think that because the acts are harmful, and affect so many people in so many ways, God cares about them very much. He absolutely cares about what and who we are, but what and who we are are often made up of what we think and do. Isn't that what Mosiah 4:30 is all about? God cares about the WHOLE picture - every little thought, word and deed that makes you who you are.
Another thing, if you have good intentions, and pure motives, and you don't want to do bad things, but you don't really actively try to do good things, what good does that do you? See what I mean? Acts are important.
And one last thing that will probably annoy you (because the thought actually annoyed me when I thought it) - how do you suppose all of this (or any of it... guess I better not be too presumptuous) fits into your earlier post on acquiescence? Doing the little things that we've been asked to do by leaders (like not wearing flip flops to church, or wearing a white shirt (in some wards) to bless and pass the sacrament, or taking your hat off to pray?) just wondering how and where you come down on that.
Hopefully that was a coherent comment.
And you should know, I like this blog more than any other blog I read. I think about things you write for weeks at a time.
One more thing about this... your post is talking about several different things, and just for clarity's sake - I do not think "things" are evil, rather, I think what we DO with them can become evil. I do think acts can be evil. (I also wish you could edit comments without having to delete the whole thing, AND I wish there were an option for bold and underlining and italics... that helps with emphasis and whatnot.)
Pornography is an evil thing. Unlike alcohol, it's only purpose is destruction.
As a man thinketh, so is he.
So true. We sin when we separate ourselves from God, and there are many ways to do this. I guess we call those things evil, because we put them between us and God. But you're right, the lord looketh upon the heart. That is what I try to do when I work on forgiving someone who's hurt me, look at their heart.
The deepest pain and sorrow I have ever experienced in my life came to me in the same form, pornography, and from two of the most significant individuals in my life. I cannot begin to tell you about the depth of the sorrow, the pain, both emotional and physical, the illnesses, the self-doubts, the betrayal, the lost of trust, the anger and the rage, the grief that it all caused in my life and in the lives of those who love me. Of course, it eventually led to understanding, forgiveness and peace, after years of work. Looking back now, one individual was never close to God, and is still not. The other,however, slowly separated himself from God.
Pornography itself is evil. Unlike alcohol, pornography's only purpose is to destroy us: those performing it, those viewing it, and the families of both. It has no other purpose other than destruction. It degrades man, woman, child. It truly provides filthy lucre. It fulfills only selfless desires. It's done in darkness, hidden. Totally destroys self-worth of both the performer and the viewer. It seals the teachings of Satan that we are not the children of God. Pornography is an evil thing.
Make that selfish desires instead of selfless desires.
Dang, I just left an incredibly long response and went to post it and couldn't because I wasn't connected to the internet.
I will write it again.
I really don't want to rewrite this but I think I must. Also, on a side note I wish I didn't use the example of pornography because Mormons feel VERY strongly about pornography and it seems they can't look past their feelings about it and see the argument at hand. I agree that we should feel so strongly about it.
(This will be very different from my last post because as I was writing my last post I thought it out as I was writing it but now I am writing it having already worked it out in my head when I was writing the last one. Writing drafts of things is very helpful)
You guys are again describing attitudes and not actions. For instance, if a pornographic window popped up on my screen and I clicked it off, would that be sinful and evil on my part? No, of course not! In fact, it was be very wise and right to do. So when we say that pornography destroys marriage I would disagree wholeheartedly with that, it isn't the pornography that destroys it, it is the person that views it that destroys it. If one person sees it and clicks it off and the other person sees it and views it, and then clicks on another link, then another, and becomes addicted are the equally sinful? No, they are not, because it wasn't the pornography that was the sin, it was the DESIRE to look at it that was the sin. The desire, or attitude is what made the second person sinful, not the pornography itself.
Also, I disagree that all pornography is innately evil. First off, let me say there are different levels of pornography. I think that the naked Michaelangelo could be pornography for someone, and I don't have a problem seeing his naked paintings and statues. There is also a beautiful scene in Braveheart when William Wallace and Murron get married at night in secret. She removes her dress and is shown totally naked. I think this is absolutely pornography, but I don't think the person had evil intentions when he put it in the film. My guess is that he thought it would make the viewers more emotionally involved when they saw this so they would understand the rest of the movie better. That said, I try not to watch it because to me pornography is evil and incredibly destructive. But I don't think all portrayals of pornography are only evil. The results from watching is is evil, but that doesn't mean the persons intention was evil, they could have just not had a PROPHET WHO CAN SEE THINGS THAT THEY CANNOT SEE tell them that nudity is wrong for everyone. If they cannot see this, and we must assume that prophets see things others cannot, otherwise what is the point of having a prophet, why would we think they are being evil.
And there is a whole other level of pornography that I do think is absolutely evil. The graphic pornography that is only there to arouse and addict people. But even then, it is the attitude that someone possesses that makes them want to see this that is evil, not the actual thing.
If a person wants to see other women naked this attitude is evil, regardless of whether or not they actually see pornography. It is the attitude that is evil, not the actual seeing it (refer to the person who clicks it off in the previous paragraph). The viewing of pornography is just the manifestation of the attitude.
Also, listing side effects of viewing pornography, which are all true (I don't know about the chemical thing), doesn't mean that it is evil, I still think it is the attitude/mentality that does the damage. Pornography doesn't destroy a marriage, as we can see with someone who just clicks it off, people destroy marriages. And even more specifically, attitudes destroy marriages.
But I don't think I can never be wrong, if you disagree leave a comment, I would love to read it. Again, I wished I used a different example. This has become just a discussion on pornography.
I thought about a couple more examples on the way to Priesthood Meeting.
Do they keep people out of heaven for seeing pornography? I don't think so. But would they have to repent before they entered? Clearly. So even though they would not be able to view pornography anymore they would still have to repent because they need to correct the mentality/attitude that let them see it.
And I have read the Elder Oaks talk that you speak of Makayla. I love that talk and it started me on this path, in a roundabout way.
Pretty much what I am trying to say is that sins are just the representation of attitudes. The sins won't keep us from God, the mentalities that lead us to these sins will.
Notwithstanding all my previous comments, I do think pornography is evil. But I think that people don't always have bad intentions when they create it. I don't think they only make it to trap people.
It would just be impossible to put down everything I am thinking about on here.
Attitudes/mindsets keep people from God, not things.
Pornography's devastating consequences do not start and end with the viewer. Think of the production of pornography. It destroys children of God. Who's plan is that?
Comfortable with soft porn? Watch your step on that slippery slope.
It's been my experience that I can listen to and watch pretty much anything I want without being immediately affected by it. My testimony's strong and I'm faithful to my covenants. I even find the nude scene in The Titanic so sweet and appropriate. But life comes at me and suddenly, I find myself spiritually upside down, and I now must rely on everything I've accumulated, the good and the true, and the other stuff. I'm weak and low now, and lonely and in need of comfort, maybe even angry at God, maybe I feel betrayed by my spouse, treated unfairly and unloved, broke financially, depressed, I'm tired and it's late at night, my spouse is giving me the silent treatment and the kids only want, want, want, and then the pop up pops up.
I didn't say I was comfortable with soft porn. I actually said I wasn't okay with it. I said that I could see that the people who create it don't always have pernicious intent behind their works.
I actually said that I wouldn't watch soft porn. I think porn is porn, I am not okay with any kind of porn. I didn't say that I am okay with soft porn, I just disagreed when you said that it always has evil at its core. Yes, it is evil, but there might not have been evil intent behind it. I didn't say I was okay with soft porn.
And if I ever do think that, I, like you, do go down that slippery slope. But, for the record, I didn't say I was okay with it. Soft porn is still porn, and we have been directed against it.
Actually, Richard G. Scott came and spoke at a meeting I was at. It was a rather intimate meeting so we spoke about some very specific things. He said something that I think was incredibly prophetic. He said "Do not ever let someone stimulate within you feelings that should only be experienced between a husband and a wife." Although he wasn't trying to, I think he defined pornography quite well. I think pornography is anything that stimulates within you feelings that should only be had between husband and wife.
So if I was walking down the street and I noticed a beautiful girl walking down the road, as soon as she becomes actually physically attracting to me I should recognize that she is becoming pornography. Yes, it is a natural feeling to be attracted someone, and actual physical attraction does come naturally also, but as soon as someone starts to feel those feelings that are to be had only between husband and wife they are starting to partake of pornography--to me. That is the standard I do my best to live by, if something starts to turn me on, it is then pornography to me and I need to discontinue doing whatever it is that is arousing those feelings.
Murron removing her clothes in Braveheart would definitely arouse those feelings in me. Although I do not think the director NECESSARILY (he could have) had pernicious desires, I do think that it is pornography either way and I should avoid it.
I don't tolerate soft-porn. I just disagreed with the inference that pornography is only created to trap people. I think that is always Satan's desire, but I don't think it is always the desire of people who create it.
I actually found the quote I disagreed with. It was when you said "pornography's only purpose is destruction."
I agree that is why Satan tries to use it, but I don't think that is the intent behind all the people that create it. I think sometimes, not wisely, they try to include it to depict beauty and love. I think that they fail in doing just that many times, but I don't think its only purpose is destruction. People try to use it in other ways. Yes, it does lead to destruction, but that isn't necessarily always its purpose.
To us, whose eyes have been opened, pornography's only purpose is destruction of self-worth, marriage, families, Heavenly Father's plan, etc. Even if the film maker does not see it that way, it does not change the purpose of it.
For example: fire burns. Any adult knows that. A little child does not know that, but fire still burns, even if the little child does not know that, it does not change the truth that fire burns.
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